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  1. #1
    Administrator xNaXDy's Avatar
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    Dungeons Update (July 2nd, 2017)

    These changes are now live.

    • When attacking a level 3 or higher dungeon, players will start in spectator mode allowing them to scout the dungeon they're attacking first. When ready to attack, they can type /spawn to begin the raid. /spawn can no longer be used to teleport back to the dungeon spawn. Players who /forfeit while scouting will still lose their attack gold & 100 honor. Once the attack has begun, players cannot go back into spectator mode until they /forfeit and re-attempt the dungeon.
    • The void will now kill players when publishing a dungeon. Regular attackers will still be respawned though.
    • The Dungeon Helper tool will also be removed for attackers.
    • The list of available dungeons in the /attack menu will be increased from 9 to 27, allowing players to better spot valuable offers without having to grind through the mediocre ones first.
    • Quartz pillars will be added to the premium shop.
    • Building materials (and premium materials) will now be free. However, the cost of redstone mechanisms and mobs, as well as battle gear will be increased by a lot. This is to bring building materials to the same level as cobblestone, which is currently free due to cobblestone generators. Items that are available in the shop are still impossible to be crafted by hand.
    • When successfully clearing a dungeon, you will now receive a copy of the players' head whose dungeon you just cleared. You can put it up in your dungeon as a trophy for example.
    • Dungeons in the /attack menu will now show a clearance rate in percent, outlining how easy/difficult a dungeon is. (moved to later update)
    • When logging in, the system will inform you about any successful/unsuccessful attacks against your dungeon while you were offline. (moved to later update)
    • Commands in notification messages will be highlighted in yellow, to make them more obvious to newer players.
    • Level 1 players no longer have an attack cost when attacking other dungeons, but will grant the defender 10 gold if they fail to clear it. This also affects cost scaling, as the attack cost for every other level will be 20 gold less.
    • Attackers will no longer be required to empty their inventory before attacking a dungeon.


    NOTE: This list (as well as the release date) is still subject to change. Items may be added or removed from this list until the update is live.
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  2. #2
    Thrall to the Internet 8ohmy's Avatar
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    I like dungeons because of the creativity it allows its players. There are a variety of options, from combat to puzzles to parkour, and these are all possible because the creator has freedom to create the dungeon that they want to create. Stripping options away from creators to combat specific issues (which aren't game-breaking for the most part, as no-one is forcing you to play a dungeon, and there will always be less 'janky' - as you put it - options avaible) serves only to restrict their choices and force them on to specific pre-approved approaches which are less interesting all around. The fact that players are using the features of the game in unexpected ways isn't a flaw or a bug, it's what makes dungeons interesting and appealing. I would far rather try to think my way around a new mechanic that a player has put in place than just fly behind the wall and see exactly how it works (making notes as I go along, so it doesn't matter how big the dungeon is) or, even worse, have that mechanic 'fixed' and have to slog through ten variants of the same nigh-impossible parkour that the creator has forced through because they can retry it as many times as they want with no consequences. If only specific approaches are permitted, then why not simply build a dozen dungeons in advance and have players attack those?

    Implementing new restrictions to render undesirable dungeons unfeasible isn't a valid long-term strategy - players will simply keep finding new ways to game the system until either the gamemode is a confusing mess of features and restrictions designed to combat a hundred different 'janky' dungeons, or a player finds a 'janky' mechanic which is too integral to either the gamemode's or Minecraft's mechanics to be removed.

    Videogames that allow players to create their own maps often force the creator to complete that map to publish it simply because it's an easy way to ensure that a map isn't literally impossible. Adding extra restrictions to the creator that aren't applied to other players playing that map means that maps not only have to be possible, they have to steer clear of certain approaches. I'm not completely sure what your definition of 'janky' is, but I can give you examples of uses of the shovel and the void respawn which I doubt would meet it - and setting a time limit on dungeon publishing attempts could make it difficult to successfully publish dungeons as large as you seem to expect them to get (not that increasing the size of your dungeon will be much help against spectator mode). Furthermore, one has to wonder why, if these features are so problematic, they are permitted to other attackers but not the publisher. The only possible explanation seems to be that you have specific uses of both the shovel and the void respawn in mind which you don't want dungeon makers to use, but by denying them to publishers you also remove every other application of them. I've never tried making a Minecraft game mode myself, but I'm sceptical that removing good mechanics along with the bad ones is the road to success.
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  3. #3
    Administrator xNaXDy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ohmy View Post
    I like dungeons because of the creativity it allows its players. There are a variety of options, from combat to puzzles to parkour, and these are all possible because the creator has freedom to create the dungeon that they want to create. Stripping options away from creators to combat specific issues (which aren't game-breaking for the most part, as no-one is forcing you to play a dungeon, and there will always be less 'janky' - as you put it - options avaible) serves only to restrict their choices and force them on to specific pre-approved approaches which are less interesting all around. The fact that players are using the features of the game in unexpected ways isn't a flaw or a bug, it's what makes dungeons interesting and appealing. I would far rather try to think my way around a new mechanic that a player has put in place than just fly behind the wall and see exactly how it works (making notes as I go along, so it doesn't matter how big the dungeon is) or, even worse, have that mechanic 'fixed' and have to slog through ten variants of the same nigh-impossible parkour that the creator has forced through because they can retry it as many times as they want with no consequences. If only specific approaches are permitted, then why not simply build a dozen dungeons in advance and have players attack those?

    Implementing new restrictions to render undesirable dungeons unfeasible isn't a valid long-term strategy - players will simply keep finding new ways to game the system until either the gamemode is a confusing mess of features and restrictions designed to combat a hundred different 'janky' dungeons, or a player finds a 'janky' mechanic which is too integral to either the gamemode's or Minecraft's mechanics to be removed.

    Videogames that allow players to create their own maps often force the creator to complete that map to publish it simply because it's an easy way to ensure that a map isn't literally impossible. Adding extra restrictions to the creator that aren't applied to other players playing that map means that maps not only have to be possible, they have to steer clear of certain approaches. I'm not completely sure what your definition of 'janky' is, but I can give you examples of uses of the shovel and the void respawn which I doubt would meet it - and setting a time limit on dungeon publishing attempts could make it difficult to successfully publish dungeons as large as you seem to expect them to get (not that increasing the size of your dungeon will be much help against spectator mode). Furthermore, one has to wonder why, if these features are so problematic, they are permitted to other attackers but not the publisher. The only possible explanation seems to be that you have specific uses of both the shovel and the void respawn in mind which you don't want dungeon makers to use, but by denying them to publishers you also remove every other application of them. I've never tried making a Minecraft game mode myself, but I'm sceptical that removing good mechanics along with the bad ones is the road to success.
    You seem to be misunderstanding the reasoning behind the planned additions. Allow me to elaborate.

    The most important addition of the next update is the scouting mode, which seems to have gotten the most criticism from you. Keep in mind that the intention isn't to limit the players' ability to create puzzle dungeons, but it is a necessary consequence to fix impossible dungeons. If you have a better alternative to fix endless lever combination dungeons other than to allow spectator mode, I'd be glad to hear it. The fact of the matter is, as far as I'm aware, there is none, and you cannot expect me to force players to try every combination of a cheap dungeon that took the creator perhaps 5 minutes to slap together.

    The goal is that the more time you spend on a dungeon, the more resources & planning you invest into it, the more rewarding it will be (i.e. the fewer players are able to clear it). At the moment, this is simply not true, as a new player could just grab a bunch of levers, slap 20 of them together, and booyah, we now have a huge wall of levers and the dungeon is amongst the 'best' defensive dungeons you can have. This simply creates frustration amongst attackers and doesn't provide creators with the sense of achievement (because there is none). Surely, that is not what you want this game mode to be like, do you now? Because if I left it like that, there would be literally no incentive for players to purchase anything other than redstone torches, levers & wiring, leaving further upgrades beyond that useless.

    You also fail to realize that there are many more possibilities for Dungeons to provide puzzle dungeons with options other than simple redstone wiring and key levers, even those that are not significantly impaired by adding spectator mode. The game mode is far from finished and there are still many features to be added. Right now is the phase where the bugs & exploits get sorted out. This is what a beta is for, as I'm sure you are aware. Do not jump to conclusions about the future of the game mode, before the game mode is even officially finished.

    In regards to the void respawn: The idea is that publishers create a dungeon that (in theory) allows the attacker to complete it in a linear flow. This goes in line with every other adventure game out there. Would /spawn or the void respawn provide the creator with more options? No. Keep in mind that this game mode is already very challenging for new players to get into, and adding another element of confusion would be counterproductive. In other games, you are rarely required to revisit a specific section via teleports. If you want to build a dungeon that requires you to complete different sections to advance in another section, you can still do so, but without teleporting. You will simply have to provide yourself a physical way back to the spawnpoint, if you so desire. I honestly fail to see the limitation in that, it is an inconvenience at best.

    In regards to the Dungeon Helper tool: The tool was initially designed to prevent dungeons from making instant lockouts. However, with the newly upcoming edition of scouting, that will no longer be necessary. The Dungeon Helper will also be removed for attackers once scouting is released, and its functionality will be split and replaced with different tools that Dungeon Masters will be able to purchase from the shop and put into chests (not next update though, that will happen in the future).

    If you have anything to add, or if you feel I missed some of your points, please let me know.
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  4. #4
    Thrall to the Internet 8ohmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xNaXDy View Post
    If you have a better alternative to fix endless lever combination dungeons other than to allow spectator mode, I'd be glad to hear it.
    The obvious solution seems to me to be to remove the incentive to create impossible dungeons. Arrange matters so that players don't suffer when another player completes their dungeon, so that they stop trying to make impossible dungeons (which I doubt it will ever be possible to truly prevent) and are instead inspired to create dungeons which are fun to play. After all, if the satisfaction of creating a good dungeon doesn't appeal to them, why else would they be making dungeons at all, and not just obtaining gold by raiding others and spending it on gear as quickly as they earn it? I doubt spectator mode will fix impossible dungeons anyway, as with observers, TNT, and other full blocks it is possible to create mechanisms which are invisible to spectators, and that's without getting into all of the possibilities for RNGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by xNaXDy View Post
    Because if I left it like that, there would be literally no incentive for players to purchase anything other than redstone torches, levers & wiring, leaving further upgrades beyond that useless.
    And yet, to my knowledge, only one 'secret combination' dungeon currently exists, out of however many modified dungeons there are at the moment. Furthermore, the combination seems to be largely common knowledge. Both of these things set a precedent for 'secret combination' dungeons that are an annoyance on the side rather than a major game-breaking issue. There will always be dungeons that players don't like or can't finish - they just have to find others that they do and can.

    Quote Originally Posted by xNaXDy View Post
    If you want to build a dungeon that requires you to complete different sections to advance in another section, you can still do so, but without teleporting.
    My issue is not so much with the absence of these mechanics, but rather with their availability to attackers but not to publishers. These things give an advantage to attackers, and the best way to eliminate this advantage is to make it a requirement instead - which is no longer possible now that publishers can't use them. /spawn was useful when you could only attack a dungeon once per day, as otherwise creators could very easily hide something in the starting area and know that once the attacker realised that, it would be too late. This is no longer an issue as you can just try again if you fail now, which leads me to wonder at the reason for the disparity between the capabilities of attacker and publisher.

    Quote Originally Posted by xNaXDy View Post
    The Dungeon Helper will also be removed for attackers once scouting is released, and its functionality will be split and replaced with different tools that Dungeon Masters will be able to purchase from the shop and put into chests (not next update though, that will happen in the future).
    I didn't realise that the functionality of the dungeon helper tool would return. Thank you for clarifying that.
    "All the faith he had had had had no effect on the outcome of his life."

  5. #5
    Administrator xNaXDy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ohmy View Post
    The obvious solution seems to me to be to remove the incentive to create impossible dungeons. Arrange matters so that players don't suffer when another player completes their dungeon, so that they stop trying to make impossible dungeons (which I doubt it will ever be possible to truly prevent) and are instead inspired to create dungeons which are fun to play. After all, if the satisfaction of creating a good dungeon doesn't appeal to them, why else would they be making dungeons at all, and not just obtaining gold by raiding others and spending it on gear as quickly as they earn it? I doubt spectator mode will fix impossible dungeons anyway, as with observers, TNT, and other full blocks it is possible to create mechanisms which are invisible to spectators, and that's without getting into all of the possibilities for RNGs.
    The problem with that is the exact same thing that creates the incentive to make impossible dungeons is the same thing that creates the incentive to upgrade your dungeon at all. If players aren't at risk of losing something, advancing your dungeon to a higher level is secondary, and the focus will be shifted to battle gear, as opposed to a healthy balance. Even without a clearly set incentive to make impossible dungeons (such as to prevent your gold from being stolen), some players will still find the task appealing and thus cause attackers to lose interest, which is not my goal. (setting aside the fact that shifting gold around the community is a main aspect of the game)

    While it is true that certain mechanisms can be disguised from a spectator's eyes, such as TNT blocks and similar, a spectator will still be able to determine that there is a mechanism in place (for example due to a stone pressure plate, wiring leading into it, etc.). Those dungeons will be able to be completed by a series of trial and error, much like puzzle dungeons today, but it will eliminate the element of frustration when a player simply does not know what's going on (referring to the lever wall once again).

    Quote Originally Posted by 8ohmy View Post
    And yet, to my knowledge, only one 'secret combination' dungeon currently exists, out of however many modified dungeons there are at the moment. Furthermore, the combination seems to be largely common knowledge. Both of these things set a precedent for 'secret combination' dungeons that are an annoyance on the side rather than a major game-breaking issue. There will always be dungeons that players don't like or can't finish - they just have to find others that they do and can.
    Yes, as of right now there is only one secret combination dungeon, and the combination is widely known, however that is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that secret combination dungeons are possible, viable, and very easy to replicate. If I wanted to do so, I could make a huge wall of levers and no one would get through it. That is not the point of the game. The fact that there is only one case of such a dungeon at this point in time changes nothing about the lack of talent and immense effectiveness such a technique bears. You wouldn't allow hacking on a server if there was only one player doing it now, would you?


    Quote Originally Posted by 8ohmy View Post
    My issue is not so much with the absence of these mechanics, but rather with their availability to attackers but not to publishers. These things give an advantage to attackers, and the best way to eliminate this advantage is to make it a requirement instead - which is no longer possible now that publishers can't use them. /spawn was useful when you could only attack a dungeon once per day, as otherwise creators could very easily hide something in the starting area and know that once the attacker realised that, it would be too late. This is no longer an issue as you can just try again if you fail now, which leads me to wonder at the reason for the disparity between the capabilities of attacker and publisher.
    You are right, these things give an advantage to attackers, which is why they will be removed in the future as well. Since attackers can now re-attempt any dungeon at will, being trapped in a room is no longer a big risk to attackers, and seeing that spectator mode should give attackers the possibility to avoid most of those cases, a creator should be rewarded for successfully trapping an attacker. However, attackers will still be able to respawn upon hitting the void. The reason for that is not exploit related though, it is more to intentionally limit the variety of viable dungeons at lower levels, and increase the variety as you progress through the game. Making void parkour levels is again too viable of a strategy to be easy. Making parkour levels and forcing players to put lava below them makes parkour dungeons only appear at later stages in the game, allowing newer players to be confronted with more difficult content as they progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by 8ohmy View Post
    I didn't realise that the functionality of the dungeon helper tool would return. Thank you for clarifying that.
    Because I hadn't said anything about it yet, that was my bad. I try to refrain from announcing multiple updates in one post, but my plan is to update Dungeons at least once a week during this month.

    If there's anything you'd like to add, please do so.
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